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Deficit and Social programs.
Last Post 25 May 2011 09:36 PM by captkyguy. 27 Replies.
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chuklesUser is Offline
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chukles

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18 Apr 2011 01:51 PM
    http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Overview

    My debate is this.

    America has become a country dependent on the Federal and state governments for handouts. How has this happened?

    There was a time in the not to distant past, where people actually worked for what they had and spent only what they had. Neighbors helped neighbors and asking for a handout was frowned upon. By very lose accounts, over 50% of the budget goes to social programs.

    What do we need to do to make the change to become more self sufficient?
    I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted Coastie, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
    Eoghan RoeUser is Offline
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    18 Apr 2011 02:02 PM
    I would say first and foremost to solve this problem: Set a limit to how long one could stay on it and stick to it. I've heard of literal GENERATIONS on welfare.

    Second, put more of that money into employment assistance programs. Help get these people jobs. I'm sure there are more than enough labor jobs out there, but people don't seem to want to do them. As heartless as it may sound, they'll want to do them once their welfare has been cut off and they can't make ends meet.
    chuklesUser is Offline
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    18 Apr 2011 02:50 PM
    If people are not wanting to do the job then how does pumping more money into the program alleviate the issue?

    Limits are a good idea, A set amount of time for assistance, during which time the person must prove they are actively looking for employment, while at the same time undergoing drug tests etc. is a good start. The issue is, as you say the generations of those that grew up in the social programs. The problem is a psychological one. How do we change the psychological aspect? To reign in the heavy spending we need to deal with the psychology of the problem as well.
    I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted Coastie, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
    Eoghan RoeUser is Offline
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    18 Apr 2011 03:19 PM
    Well I meant the employment assistance programs in that when they legitimately want to get into a job (after they've been off welfare and realize they are going to starve to death >_> I want them to easily be able to get into a job (even if it means paving roads or roofing houses.) I'm not talking about helping them get nice cushy jobs... just jobs. Work for money.

    If they want to move into a nicer job from there, great, they put in that effort, but I'm just suggesting a system that gets them into jobs when they are honestly trying.

    For instance, I graduated college on July 2008. Had a job from July - Oct when the company I was with downsized and because I was new I was on the cutting block. From Oct to January I was unemployed all the while draining what little savings I had paying college loans. During that time, 3 months... I was rejected from 3 fast food restaurants and a grocery story because I was essentially over qualified. They didn't want to hire me and then I leave a month later. Now granted, that was a short time, but the concept remains... I was just trying to get ANY JOB and couldn't. I was under qualified for the job I wanted and over qualified for a paycheck

    Sorry, going on a rant there.
    GearsUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 08:09 AM
    I say cut off the handouts for those people who aren't working. With the exception of Roe, anyone with a HS Diploma or GED can find an entry level job. That job may require cutting potatoes, but at least you're working. Assistance should be rendered to those who are working, but don't make enough to make ends meet. A single mother working in the service industry might have to decide eat or rent, eat or electricity. Those people deserve gov't assistance. The up side is, it wouldn't have to be much, $100-$200 per month augmented by minimum wage hours could reduce the person's burden. Put more money into educating people about education. There are plenty of programs to help people get into college, get technical training, etc. And, there's plenty of money to pay for it, via Pell Grants, scholarships, and loans.

    Get rid of "No Child Left Behind," if a kid doesn't want to be in high school suffering through rote learning, and is disrupting everyone else, send them to a technical school to learn a trade. The person is still being educated, plus they are learning a hands on skill that can help them make real money. Set term limits for all political offices. Lifetime politicians are the biggest drain we have. They work 5 days a year, walk out, take 2 months off, play games with our tax money, and when they finally decide they can't decide they start campaigning. Fresh blood should be injected with every Presidential election, on a staggered rotation though, to cut down on political nepotism.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    chuklesUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 08:11 AM
    Well said Gears!
    I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted Coastie, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
    Eoghan RoeUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 08:20 AM

    Posted By Gears on 19 Apr 2011 08:09 AM
    With the exception of Roe, anyone with a HS Diploma or GED can find an entry level job.


    Was that a jab?

    I do completely agree on the "No child left behind" thing. It wasn't a well thought out plan. I was in the honors program for a large majority of high school, but my senior year I took a college prep math course just to finish up for graduation. That class was a joke... as a senior we were doing stuff I first learned in middle school.
    GearsUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 09:47 AM
    Just a small one. Feel free to jab back.

    My experience with college courses has been eye opening. It's no different from high school. I've coming to the end of completing my BA, and I've done is read, memorize, and summarize. Where's the value? For someone like me a tour in the military, and some hands on training will go further than interpreting the circular logic of Philosophy, at $20K a year.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    chuklesUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 09:58 AM
    True, however the combination of your practical experience and your book learned experience helps to make you a more rounded individual. I agree its a a lot of memorization, but is that not what you are doing in the practical sense with your job? The difference is in the application. While you are hands on with your work in a daily basis, the college learned portion is not fully in use as it may not apply to your current position. My BSBA is used daily in my duties as the RIC because I run and office and can apply sound business practice within the office. MY ITM degree, while very interesting is not being applied daily as my hands are tied with ESU and ESD. Would this degree be more helpful if I was an IT? absolutely.

    I did not go back to school until 41 years old, I think my viewpoint is different than someone going straight into college out of High school. I view it as a way to improve my knowledge as applied to my normal duties, whereas, in my opinion, a younger college student views the degree as a line to employment.
    I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted Coastie, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
    Eoghan RoeUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 09:59 AM
    Speaking as someone with a BA.... I think BS is a lot better about that stuff. Some of the computer courses and such that I took were much better about teaching skills that are applicable to job experiences.

    And I think at the point that people needing this sort of employment assistance are at, they need something specific to a job. If they can't read and write, put a shovel in their hand and have them spread asphalt. If they want "higher education" they need to pursue that on their own time/dime.
    GearsUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 12:55 PM
    however the combination of your practical experience and your book learned experience helps to make you a more rounded individual.


    I agree. Which is why I'm suckin' it up and going to college. The only way I'm gonna find a cushy gov't job is if I have a BA to back up my BS. As luck would have it, the BA doesn't have to be specific just a BA. So, in my opinion it loses value. My years of experience with leadership, management, fixing stuff will only take me so far in the real world. Who decided that my ability to listen to an interpretation of Shakespeare's Sonnets for 4 years makes me more qualified to do something someone else has been doing "hands-on" for 4 years.

    If they can't read and write, put a shovel in their hand and have them spread asphalt. If they want "higher education" they need to pursue that on their own time/dime.


    I agree. Everyone deserves an education, not everyone deserves the same education. Not everyone enjoys the cookie crunch of a Twix, so why is everyone being force fed them?
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    captkyguyUser is Offline
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    19 Apr 2011 10:25 PM
    I completely agree with everything being said here...

    Everyone needs a hand in tough times, however everyone needs to be chipping in his or her part (I will stop here on that thought).

    It is sad when a person on unemployment can bring home more money to put food on their table then accepting a minimum wage paying job, because of taxes and child care...where is the motivation to work hard labor when you can earn more money sitting at home doing nothing.
    I want to finally set it free, So show me how to see what Your mercy sees, Help me now to give what You gave to me...Forgiveness, Forgiveness
    GearsUser is Offline
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    Gears

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    21 Apr 2011 06:03 AM
    I think the problem stems from the notion that everyone deserves everything whether they earned it or not. "I grew up in poverty, so I deserve to be bailed out. I'm old, worked my whole life, and didn't plan to live this long, I deserve to be bailed out. I came here from another country even more broke than this one, bail me out even though I don't pay taxes or contribute." The list goes on and on. At some point you, even at the risk of losing votes (gasp!) our political leaders need to cut the umbilical, people need to learn to be self-sufficient again. The best way to do that, is to take away their "entitlements."
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    Eoghan RoeUser is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 07:07 AM
    Exactly!

    Even as a kid, I was amazed at how different things were for some of my friends. I didn't get an allowance... if I wanted money, I washed the cars, mowed the lawns, cleaned the house etc. I had friends who just GOT an allowance, then sure if they wanted more they could do that... but that almost never did because they didn't need to.
    GearsUser is Offline
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    Gears

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    21 Apr 2011 08:10 AM
    You earned your keep, that's a good thing. I had chores, but never got paid for them. If I wanted extra money, I had to mow lawns, wash dogs, get a job, etc. No one gave me anything. The current generation being reared seems to have everything handed to them. Cell phones, internet, video games don't seem like privileges anymore from my POV those are entitlements for the current gen. I wonder what they will be entitled to next...
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    Eoghan RoeUser is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 08:36 AM
    While not a parent yet... I feel like my kids are going to be "entitled" to food, clothing (and we're not talking designer stuff), and a roof over their head. Beyond that, they gotta earn it.

    As far as gifts... yes, I may get them video games and such, but they also have to earn the privilege to use them. ;-)
    GearsUser is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 08:41 AM
    Good plan. There should be a balance. Kids need to know they will be provided for. Parents giving in demands to placate their children, in my mind all we are breeding is a generation of sociopaths who don't understand the word, "no."
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    21 Apr 2011 11:32 AM
    ok...i think there is a little bit of being naive going on here. first of all there are all kinds of jobs. there are great blue collar jobs and great white collar jobs. you make it sound like being given a shovel to spread asphalt is a "low-end" job. the truth is....it isn't. it is a very highly paid blue collar job and they are few and far between. it's competitive, as competitive as an excutive position for some with a college degree. truth be told.....my uncle spreads asphalt for a living....well now he helps run the company. however, back in the 70's when he started it was at the bottom and spreading asphalt. mind you.....he started at the bottom WITH a college degree.

    bottom line is this, the blue collar jobs that helped build this country to what it is today just aren't available like they used to be. anyone tried getting a job at gm, alcoa, or even hanging iron? those jobs are so few and far between and they often require knowing someone to "help" you get in the door.

    tried getting a white collar job lately with a degree? seriously? cause i have been trying for nearly 2 years. the competition is horrendous. seriously!

    did anyone not see the news on i think it was the 20th.......1,000 people applied at a mcdonalds with 4 openings. 4!!! so when you say there are jobs out there people just don't want to do them......i seriously think you need to step out in the real world. there aren't jobs out there!! and people are willing to work. you have college graduates with experience taking jobs paying $8.00/hr just to put a bit of food on the table.
    ~Jen~
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    21 Apr 2011 05:54 PM
    I agree there is nothing wrong with blue collar work. More than once I've crawled home smelling like God's armpit, but I was thrilled that I worked my butt off and got or kept a cutter underway. I've started from the ground up with a HS education, a PUBLIC HS education. During the Depression FDR made some bold moves and started programs to improve infrastructure. New roads were built, national parks, hillbillies got electricity for the first time. The same thing needs to be done now, I'm sure people would jump at the jobs. The only problem is all the stimulus money that was released was funneled into someone's pocket rather than the economy.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    21 Apr 2011 06:44 PM
    ppffttt!!

    past history has proven war to be good business for the states. which is about the time we were there and fdr started working on the infastructure. now mind you.....i am NOT pro war persay, but if we are gonna be there like we are in libya then do it and get it over with and quit spending our tax dollars babysitting!! enough with the wishy washy back and forth stuff and never saying anything that makes sense. all i hear is spend, spend, spend!!! how about we spend it at home?????
    ~Jen~
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    22 Apr 2011 06:41 AM
    +1 Jen

    FDR started those programs before the war started. The war kicked stuff into high gear. Unfortunately, the kind of leadership that makes a decision, takes a stand, admits when they are wrong, and tries something new is now as obsolete. Our current political climate is "yap yap yap... things are hard... yap yap yap.. the other party sucks... yap yap yap let's bail out the fools who caused this mess rather than invest in new areas... because if we don't we lose valuable campaign contributions, and if I don't get reelected I won't get to hear myself talk." We need to vote for a leader next time around, not a talking head whose sound bites make great posters. "Change! What you'll have after I'm done taxing the hell out of you and giving the money to the people who need it least!"
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    02 May 2011 06:21 AM
    By no means did I mean to say blue collar jobs are less than white collar jobs... in fact I was saying some people DO think that and need to stop.

    As for the competition in it, yes, they may be highly competitive in your area. In others they're begging for people to come do those jobs. Likewise, and this isn't the common individuals fault, but here in Warner Robins the big thing is to get a job on the AFB. GREAT! The grocery stores off base will have like 2 lanes open and 15-20 people standing in line waiting to check out because either a) no one wants to be a bag boy or b) the managers don't deem it cost effective to please their customers.
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    Gears

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    02 May 2011 07:06 AM
    In others they're begging for people to come do those jobs.


    The down side there... the people who want the jobs either refuse to relocate, or can't afford to. So, it's a lose/lose situation.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    02 May 2011 07:18 AM
    True enough. Again, that's the purpose of the assistance I was proposing. Not to GIVE them an education, but help them find the jobs that ARE available. If they refuse them, then they also refuse unemployment benefits.

    If there simply IS nothing, fine. But if there is ANY job in their location and they refuse it, that would be an immediate red flag to stop giving them any financial assistance.
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    02 May 2011 09:22 AM
    I agree. If the gov't was going to give me more money to not work than I could make at a minimum wage job, esp with gas over $4 a gallon, why bother?
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    02 May 2011 10:03 AM
    Yep...with child care, gas expenses and medical insurance costs...one can receive much more on unemployment then a minimum wage job...seems a little backwards.

    What if we set back wages, inflation and all the stuff that goes with it, to the 30's and 40's wages and costs...could you imagine how much the dollar would be worth. A two bit tip would be of value again that is for sure.
    I want to finally set it free, So show me how to see what Your mercy sees, Help me now to give what You gave to me...Forgiveness, Forgiveness
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    25 May 2011 07:21 PM
    The first step would be to lower the benefits. I have friends that I grew up with that are choosing to stay on unemployment rather than finding a job, because the pay is better when you're not working. He has been on unemployment for over 4 years! That is ridiculous, and it actually shames me to be his friend. How can a man stay home and not work for over 4 years while his wife goes out and earns a paycheck? He used to be a truck driver, and had a shoulder injury that kept him from performing that job. He is now in a picky mood where he thinks he is entitled to the luxury of waiting for someone to hire him to drive again, rather than taking a lower level job. This is unsat.

    I think after you lower the benefit, you will find that people actually get out there and start pounding the pavement for a job that pays better than the unemployment checks.

    In addition to that, I am all for mandatory urinalysis for anyone receiving a handout. I have to pee in a cup to continue getting my government check, so I don't see a problem with someone else having to do the same. If they have nothing to hide, then there shouldn't be a problem, right?

    In addition to that, I think there should be some sort of lifetime limit to receiving the government assistance. You can use some here, and some there, but in the end, there is a clock that runs out, kind of like the GI Bill.

    In the end, I believe that there is a definite need for the government assistance programs. I would never argue otherwise. But if you make it easy to abuse and defraud the system, then abuse and fraud will run rampant.

    Off my tree stump now. Sorry.
    You can meet the standard, or you can set the standard. It's your choice.
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    25 May 2011 09:36 PM
    A very good tree stump...
    I want to finally set it free, So show me how to see what Your mercy sees, Help me now to give what You gave to me...Forgiveness, Forgiveness
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