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Border Security, Fact or Fiction
Last Post 11 Apr 2012 07:59 PM by Gandler. 23 Replies.
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chuklesUser is Offline
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21 Apr 2011 03:52 PM
    Are we truly trying to secure our borders, or is it fiction?

    The number of criminal aliens incarcerated in California rose to 102,795 in 2009, a 17 percent increase since 2003, federal auditors reported Thursday.

    This isn't cheap. Nationwide, the Government Accountability Office reports, it costs well over $1.1 billion a year for states to imprison criminal aliens -- those who committed a crime after entering the United States illegally. California, moreover, is more expensive than other states. GAO auditors estimated California spends $34,000 to incarcerate a criminal alien for one year; in Texas, it's only $12,000.

    The audit, requested by Rep. Zoe Lofgren, D-San Jose, will provide ammunition for states' perennial effort to secure more federal reimbursement dollars.

    More than one in four of the illegal immigrants imprisoned in California are behind bars for drug offenses. Many are also repeat offenders. GAO auditors say that, based on a survey, criminal alien inmates have been arrested an average of seven different times.




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    I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. I'd like to remind them that as a trusted Coastie, I can be helpful in rounding up others to toil in their underground sugar caves.
    captkyguyUser is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 04:22 PM
    This could be a very hot topic...

    12k is way too much to spend on a prison inmate period! California, for a lack of a better word, is run by a lot of not so bright of people!

    I am not opposed to immigration as that is how we all came to be here in the absolutely great nation, but instead of spending who knows how much money on the so called patrolling of the boarders and fencing, what is next, the Great Wall of America?

    I suggest that we set up kiosks and toll booths at the main choke points on the boarders with the back and forth line control railings like you find at the amusement parks and legalize them right there on the spot so that we can start collecting taxes and stop giving them free money. Heck we could even have a cover charge up front to pay for the administration costs and kiosk maintenance. The money we spend funding illegal immigration is just absurd and the politicians letting it still happen should all be deported to third world nations.

    Open the boarders and invite them in, just sell them a ticket and collect their share of the taxes and stop giving them free money!
    I want to finally set it free, So show me how to see what Your mercy sees, Help me now to give what You gave to me...Forgiveness, Forgiveness
    GearsUser is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 05:00 PM
    the Great Wall of America?


    That's not a bad idea. It kept the Mongols out of China.

    You know how you reduce the cost of taking care of an inmate? Take away their rights. A violent offender strips the rights of their victims, they deserve the same. Repeat offenders, send them to the chopping block. You lock 'em up, and all they are going to do is fall right back into a life of crime. Yeah, yeah, yeah... that's really harsh, but so are the crimes committed against innocent people. Protect the victims, not the offenders.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    MasterGuns2077User is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 05:49 PM
    A hot topic indeed.
    I never understood how constitutional rights apply to non-U.S. citizens.
    Of course, shipping them back does nothing, because the Mexican government is all too happy to have criminals leave.
    The problem is the perception that not all illegal immigrants are criminals. Hopefully you can see why this makes no sense.
    I don't know what the fix is honestly. On the one hand, you can legalize as many as possible (total amnesty), however as much free money as they get now, many of them will be on welfare almost immediately. They don't come here because they're well off.
    The other extreme would be harsh enforcement of the border. Assume that every person crossing the border is an agent of the drug runners and treat them as such. In other words, extreme prejudice.
    Neither of these routes would work IMHO. I don't think there is another situation quite like this elsewhere in the world, so whatever the Government finally decides to do, it will have to be an original idea.
    On a lighter note, my father once suggested setting up a Korean style DMZ at the border. Hey, it would probably work
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    jen899193User is Offline
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    21 Apr 2011 05:58 PM
    gears you are singing my tune!! absolutely the great wall of america!! let's get real. illegal immigrants get more benefits from this country than most of us legal citizens can get. i am all for coming here legally....the way my grandfather did. come in legally, take citizenship classes, learn how to speak the language, and pay flippin' taxes like the rest of us.

    as for the criminals.....don't even get me going on the lack of "victim" rights in this country. i have spent 20 years watching the system protect the criminals and screw the victims. and no.....i suppose "technically" not all illegals are criminals. however, being in this country illegally is a crime. so therefore illegal immigrants are criminals since they are here without proper documentation or green card. why do we have to be so liberal? there were recently two citizens who "accidently" crossed into north korea and were put in prison. most countries will put you in prison if you are there illegally. why is it acceptable to come to the states illegally and get social services and benefits? to send them back or to prison showing extreme prejudice? i call BS!!!
    ~Jen~
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    21 Apr 2011 11:56 PM

    Posted By jen899193 on 21 Apr 2011 06:58 PM
    being in this country illegally is a crime. so therefore illegal immigrants are criminals since they are here without proper documentation or green card. why do we have to be so liberal? there were recently two citizens who "accidently" crossed into north korea and were put in prison. most countries will put you in prison if you are there illegally. why is it acceptable to come to the states illegally and get social services and benefits? to send them back or to prison showing extreme prejudice? i call BS!!!

    Mostly what I meant.
    What I was getting at was treating them not only as criminals, but as dangerous criminals. Authorities hear about illegals living somewhere, they go in busting down doors in SWAT gear (not sounding like such a bad idea actually).
    And about being liberal, what's funny is some of the most "liberal" countries in the world have immigration laws that border on xenophobia.
    There's nothing wrong with sending them back or sending them to prison, except that neither is fixing the problem. They'll just come back, every time. Unless the government wants to support someone crossing into the U.S. illegally for 20+ years in prison, doing time isn't really a deterrent to people this desperate.
    Of course up to this point the "fix" has been adding a few border patrol officers here and there and National Guard units that are powerless to do anything.
    Honestly, I could believe that until things are better in Mexico, people will always be coming to America, unless we take that Korean DMZ approach... starting to sound like a good idea.
    Your passion for what you do will set you free.
    jen899193User is Offline
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    22 Apr 2011 04:35 AM

    i know a coastie in miami. he said there were numerous illegals coming in the other nite. one woman coming in on the boat, from india, literally gave birth in the sand on the beach. tell me she didn't have that one planned?
    ~Jen~
    GearsUser is Offline
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    22 Apr 2011 05:53 AM
    my father once suggested setting up a Korean style DMZ at the border. Hey, it would probably work


    Your father is a wise man, IMO.

    I think the problem goes back to the Statue of Liberty attitude, "Bring me your poor, something, huddled masses, etc." This is the land of opportunity for sure. The problem is, the American taxpayer is carrying the burden. As a taxpayer and voter I should have more say in where my money goes. I've wanted to go to DC, head to the Capitol while Congress is in session so I could talk to my Congressman face-to-face. I'm pretty sure though, I would be escorted out by security, before I ever had a chance to finish walking up the steps. I figure every time I address my current state reps, and get a form letter back that's a rep that won't be getting my vote. If you're gonna spend my money, I deserve 5 min of your time.

    I think Immigration Customs Enforcement (ICE) is trying to get a handle on the situation. However, as aggressive as they are the program still has flaws. They have to deport illegal aliens. So, a woman whose lived here for 20 years gets sent back "home" where she knows no one. You'd think I would be sympathetic, I'm not. In 20 years you didn't have the time or money to become a citizen? Or, you were enjoying the entitlements of being in America anyway so you didn't bother. Here's a money saving tip: No citizenship, not a taxpayer, no benefits.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    22 Apr 2011 09:53 AM

    Posted By Gears on 22 Apr 2011 06:53 AM
    In 20 years you didn't have the time or money to become a citizen? Or, you were enjoying the entitlements of being in America anyway so you didn't bother. Here's a money saving tip: No citizenship, not a taxpayer, no benefits.


    I agree with you on both counts. I actually happen to know a man who came here almost three decades ago illegally. He was here as such for a couple years, but began the process of naturalization pretty shortly after he decided to stay here for good. Just a few years ago he finished, and is now a full-blown citizen of the U.S.
    Do I approve of how he got here? Absolutely not! However, at least he took the initiative to take part in the naturalization process. Anyone here 20 years who didn't even bother? That's just ridiculous.

    One thing I will say about our nations congressmen...it's actually quite easy to go to their offices. I was in the capital a few years ago at a conference with some fellow MCJROTC cadets. We decided we wanted to stop by our congressmen's offices, give them a photo op with some young Cadets in uniform (they eat that crap up). All we had to do was through a metal detector and I think show some ID. After that, it was just a matter of find their offices. Of course, they weren't there. Surprise surprise, that's where things get difficult. However, we did get tickets to enter the capitol building and view the session. Of course, there was no session.
    So Gears, if you decided to march up to your congressman's office, you probably wouldn't have any trouble. Good luck on them being there though
    Your passion for what you do will set you free.
    GearsUser is Offline
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    22 Apr 2011 10:21 AM
    Your friend I can respect. It took him awhile, but he got the process started and finished. Nothing wrong with that. Not bothering, that's a problem and people shouldn't be surprised when they find themselves back "home".

    Thanks for the tip. Next time in town I'll be sure to stop by, and sell hello to my state reps. Maybe I'll get lucky and actually catch them in town.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
    jen899193User is Offline
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    22 Apr 2011 02:21 PM

    lmao!!! i know what state you live in. dork.....the rep will prob be where they should be......did you forget to watch the news when all the dems went to illinois for 30 days and are now being fined????
    ~Jen~
    GearsUser is Offline
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    22 Apr 2011 03:34 PM
    I live in one state, but I'm a resident of the one up and to the right. So, they just might be in town, and not hiding in the state to the left. Next time I'm in DC I'll give it a shot and let you know what happens.
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    29 May 2011 04:30 PM
    One of the first US soldiers to die in Iraq was an Illegal Immigrant He was Marine Lance Corporal Jose Gutierrez He was given citizenship in the grave. A bit too late if you ask me.
    http://militarytimes.com/valor/mari...ez/256506/
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    10 Apr 2012 06:21 PM
    I don't agree with that definition of criminal aliens. Anyone who enters illegally is a criminal.

    That said, a wall may or may not work. I forget who said it but "if you build a 30 foot wall, the 31foot ladder business will get real good". Not to mention the wall will not work on the Coast (as I am sure all CG members know as one of the CGs missions is to intercept illegal alien smuggling).

    I think a better way would be to make people not want to come here. They come here illegally because we give illegal aliens welfare, education, and in some states they even give Drivers Licenses. If you took away these incentives and if you made a strict system for citizen ship authentication by all employers to make it impossible for illegals to get jobs you would make a virtual wall and they would all stop coming. they come here for jobs and government benefits, if there are none to get they simply won't come.

    All the walls and security in the world will not prevent all illegals, but shutting off the system that they come to work, will stop them (and save trillions of dollars). I forget what the stat is but the amount of welfare collected by illegal immigrants is sickening (as you may know I am against welfare for most people. But if an American hits a hard time that is one thing. But there is no way in hell an illegal immigrant should be getting my hard earned money for doing nothing. when they should not even be here). And that is just welfare, then add on free medical care (hospitals legally have to give free care to illegals because of some perverse law), and educating them in public schools (thousands per year per student). And then add the fact that the money illegals make is often under the table and hence not taxed. And the money they earn usually goes back to their home country so it leaves our economy (illegal aliens are Mexico's #1 source of import income, because illegals come here and send all of their earnings back to their family). So yea they cost the government a ton of money and give nothing back.

    Also, the Mexican government encourages illegal immigration because of the reasons I addressed above and they have government agencies that give advice and training courses to get over the border. The ironic thing is look how Mexico treats their illegal immigrants from South America, and then they encourage their citizens to become illegal immigrants to boom the economy.

    But the border does need to be secured to prevent terrorists and drug dealers from coming across, but as far as illegal immigration it will need much more than a wall to stop the incoming illegals and to fix the economical damage already caused.
    BellsUser is Offline
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    11 Apr 2012 12:57 AM
    Next time I want to see that in research paper form with citations.

    Guaranteed they would still come if the benefits went away, do you even know how bad Mexico is? If I were from Mexico, and not America with my family history going back past the 1850's, you bet your a** I would cross a desert to avoid getting killed for how bad it is down there in some places. Its fricken instinct. Its also instinct to want to provide for your family "In the land of opportunity", when its not being offered where you are at. If I was a hunter and gatherer and I hadnt seen a buffalo in a few days I would probably move. If I was a graduating college senior and IL was a sh*thole for public service jobs because 600 people would apply for 5 spots at a time since they lost all their money in the stock market, and public service was a last resort when I actually went to school for it, then ya, Im going to join the Coast Guard and move anywhere in or outside the US. It's not immigrants being the problem, its the LACK OF OVERSITE OF THE US GOVERNMENT.

    Are there other options? Ya. But I can see why one would come here illegally. Do they then have the obligation to natraulize and assimilate? Ya they should. If they commit a crime then ya get deported, you lost your chance. Honestly, if your an American and you can't keep your nose clean then fricken get deported somewhere too, like Anarctica. A one way ticket to Anarctica would be alot cheaper than ANY incarnation/appeals/court system backlogs/probation/parole situation. Or go live in a compound in the middle of the country where theres nothing. Hunt and gather.

    AND I don't know what pubic school your talking about because I was born and raised in the biggest and poorest school district in IL, the Chicagoland area where they have incentives to send highschool grads to college for free (IL State University) for teaching degrees to obligate two years back to a Chicago public school, whos kids' education is no way in he** worth "thousands per year", when they dont even have books/chalk.

    PS Gears this was from last year, where has all your saucyness gone?
    Take what you like and leave the rest behind.
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    11 Apr 2012 05:28 AM

    Posted By Bells on 11 Apr 2012 01:57 AM
    Next time I want to see that in research paper form with citations.

    Guaranteed they would still come if the benefits went away, do you even know how bad Mexico is? If I were from Mexico, and not America with my family history going back past the 1850's, you bet your a** I would cross a desert to avoid getting killed for how bad it is down there in some places. Its fricken instinct. Its also instinct to want to provide for your family "In the land of opportunity", when its not being offered where you are at. If I was a hunter and gatherer and I hadnt seen a buffalo in a few days I would probably move. If I was a graduating college senior and IL was a sh*thole for public service jobs because 600 people would apply for 5 spots at a time since they lost all their money in the stock market, and public service was a last resort when I actually went to school for it, then ya, Im going to join the Coast Guard and move anywhere in or outside the US. It's not immigrants being the problem, its the LACK OF OVERSITE OF THE US GOVERNMENT.

    Are there other options? Ya. But I can see why one would come here illegally. Do they then have the obligation to natraulize and assimilate? Ya they should. If they commit a crime then ya get deported, you lost your chance. Honestly, if your an American and you can't keep your nose clean then fricken get deported somewhere too, like Anarctica. A one way ticket to Anarctica would be alot cheaper than ANY incarnation/appeals/court system backlogs/probation/parole situation. Or go live in a compound in the middle of the country where theres nothing. Hunt and gather.


    Why should they be able to naturalize if they come here illegally? There is a five year waitlist for Green Cards of 5 years and you have to go through a lot of paperwork and tests to make sure you are fit to enter America. Why should people be able to just cut in front of people waiting 5 years and get naturalized? Not to mention since hey come here illegally they were never medically tested to make sure they don't have contagious disease.

    But yes they come here for money like you said. If there are no jobs available to them and the government stops giving them free money they will stop coming. And yes ESL costs a ton of money, that is one of the reasons why the schools are broke. ESL means that they have to have all school curriculums available in any language for illegals who don't want to learn English.


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    11 Apr 2012 10:55 AM
    Ahhhh more limited views of the world I see. So all people who speak Spanish as a first language are illegals? It's entirely possible that their families naturalized here perfectly legally, but since the parents speak Spanish only, it is the primary language in the home. The school systems recognize this and try and help the student by testing them in the language that they read and write best.

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    11 Apr 2012 01:14 PM

    Posted By Cooch on 11 Apr 2012 11:55 AM
    Ahhhh more limited views of the world I see. So all people who speak Spanish as a first language are illegals? It's entirely possible that their families naturalized here perfectly legally, but since the parents speak Spanish only, it is the primary language in the home. The school systems recognize this and try and help the student by testing them in the language that they read and write best.

    The world isn't as black and white as you believe it to be.


    No that is not what I said at all. And it does not matter if they are legal or not. I am talking about schools losing money. When my Great Grandparents immigrated from Finland the school never developed a curriculum in Finnish. They were forced to learn English or not go to school. Public School should be English Only. And like Newt Gingrich said English needs to be proclaimed the official language of the USA. I think we are the only country in the world who does not have an official language.

    Also the citizenship test is done in English so there are very few citizens that don't speak English proficiently.

    But my view does not matter, that was just one of many examples of how to make criminal immigrants lose incentive.
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    11 Apr 2012 01:15 PM

    Posted By XWA5004 on 29 May 2011 05:30 PM
    One of the first US soldiers to die in Iraq was an Illegal Immigrant He was Marine Lance Corporal Jose Gutierrez He was given citizenship in the grave. A bit too late if you ask me.
    http://militarytimes.com/valor/mari...ez/256506/

    He was not an illegal Alien. He was a legal residency alien.
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    11 Apr 2012 06:27 PM
    PS Gears this was from last year, where has all your saucyness gone?


    I just noticed this thread taking off again... And, away we go!

    I can't find the story but Arnold Schwarzenegger is a shining example of immigration gone right. He came here speaking very little English, harnessed his talents, adopted the language of his new country, and made a success of himself, and became a legal citizen. He even starred in a blockbuster movie with 3 other future Governors and Carl "Action Jackson"/"Apollo Creed" Weathers. What's your excuse now? If I decide to take up residency in Luxembourg I don't expect everyone to cater to me and speak English. I expect I'm going to have to adapt to the local culture or starve to death under a bridge.

    Saucy enough for ya' Bells?
    “I’m not in this world to live up to your expectations and you’re not in this world to live up to mine.” ― Bruce Lee
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    11 Apr 2012 06:40 PM
    The children are learning English though. The parents are older and it might be tougher to learn at that point in life. My great grandfather came here from Italy after WWI. He was a highly decorated member of the Italian army. He came here, worked his butt off to feed his wife and 6 kids, all of whom spoke English just fine. He never spoke a word of English though. It really doesn't matter what language you speak. Only character and work ethic matters to me. I don't see a need for an official language because this country is the ultimate melting pot in the world. It was founded by English, Spanish, and French, and has since been flooded by every nationality in the world. Somewhere along the way, we have forgotten that. Should people come here illegally? No. But we can't develop some high and mighty attitude towards immigrants that are striving for a better life, because we wouldn't be here if people hadn't done it in the past. We have lost our way because we are several generations removed from those immigrants.
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    11 Apr 2012 06:56 PM

    Posted By Cooch on 11 Apr 2012 07:40 PM
    The children are learning English though. The parents are older and it might be tougher to learn at that point in life. My great grandfather came here from Italy after WWI. He was a highly decorated member of the Italian army. He came here, worked his butt off to feed his wife and 6 kids, all of whom spoke English just fine. He never spoke a word of English though. It really doesn't matter what language you speak. Only character and work ethic matters to me. I don't see a need for an official language because this country is the ultimate melting pot in the world. It was founded by English, Spanish, and French, and has since been flooded by every nationality in the world. Somewhere along the way, we have forgotten that. Should people come here illegally? No. But we can't develop some high and mighty attitude towards immigrants that are striving for a better life, because we wouldn't be here if people hadn't done it in the past. We have lost our way because we are several generations removed from those immigrants.

    But I am assuming you grandfather never went to school here and if he did he would never demand that they develop an Italian curriculum. ESL is destroying the education budget.

    The melting pot is true, but to what extent will you take? The Natives were here first and there are hundreds of tribes with hundreds of different languages. Then colonizers came from many Europe and Asian countries. So should we have 200+ official languages to be spoken in Public? I have no issue with people being proud of their racial and cultural heritage, but for all practicality we need 1 official language for all official uses.

    Many people are striving for a better life. Millions of Americans are out of work, millions of of people are on wait-lists to move here legally. So I have no sympathy for criminals who sneak across the border to cheat the system and steal jobs from legal citizens and legal aliens and cut the line in front of people working for years to move here.

    We have not lost our way. Your grandfather I would bet would never dream of coming here illegally I am willing to bet he worked hard all of his life to bring his family here legally. As almost all legal immigrants did at that point in time because immigrants and Americans respected and understood the necessity of following the law. Legal Immigration is a great part of America. However nobody is criticizing legal immigration, it is illegal immigration where the issue is.
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    Cooch

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    11 Apr 2012 07:12 PM
    There's two seperate arguments here. Official language and illegal immigration. I've already said I don't agree with coming here illegally, so you did a lot of typing for nothing since we agree on that. ESL destroys the education budgets? How about annual budget slashing? That's the real culprit behind failing educational budgets.

    Besides, that's an issue for each state to worry about. It doesn't need national legislation. States like Florida and Arizona have a need for ESL curriculum, whereas states like Kansas, Michigan, and Connecticut don't have the same need. I will never agree with mandating a national language.
    You can meet the standard, or you can set the standard. It's your choice.
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    Gandler

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    11 Apr 2012 07:59 PM

    Posted By Cooch on 11 Apr 2012 08:12 PM
    There's two seperate arguments here. Official language and illegal immigration. I've already said I don't agree with coming here illegally, so you did a lot of typing for nothing since we agree on that. ESL destroys the education budgets? How about annual budget slashing? That's the real culprit behind failing educational budgets.

    Besides, that's an issue for each state to worry about. It doesn't need national legislation. States like Florida and Arizona have a need for ESL curriculum, whereas states like Kansas, Michigan, and Connecticut don't have the same need. I will never agree with mandating a national language.

    Typing a viewpoint is never for nothing and I was clarifying my position (sorry about all of the underlining my HTML in browser must have messed up).

    But ESL does relate to illegal immigration in an indirect way since as I said illegal immigrants are less likely to speak English than people who immigrate and obtain legal citizenship and since many states (if not all I can't say with certainty) give public education to illegals it encourages them to break and enter.

    But I do agree that it is a state issue. and that the Federal government should have no role in education (or in most things for that matter). But my state spends about 67 million a year on ESL. And I think my state should not spend that money on such a thing. And the cost will rise as more and more non Elvish speakers come.

    But what the federal government can and should do is make a national language. I don't understand why you would find having English declared a nation language a bad thing? Remember the Tower of Bable in the bible? It was a great effort by masses of people but it failed when they all started speaking their own language and nobody could understand the other groups of workers. Like I said people have the right to talk however they want but for work and official purposes there should be a uniformed language. And since 96% of the population speak English highly proficiently and English throughout all of history has been used in Congress and Government functions it seems appropriate.
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