There is shooting at basic.. simulator or live fire. We don't use the 9mm anymore. We switched to the much more gangsta looking Sig .40.

live fire is no more. You will only be able to shoot simulator.

Posted By PinkSeas on 05 Dec 2011 02:48 PM

While at basic any range shooting? If so, is it with a m16 or 9mm?

Is there an underlying concern that you have?  Do you have any experience with firearms?

Everything at cape may is now simulated thanks to the guy who literally shot himself in the foot

Is that the new story they're telling?  When I was there July 2010, the story being passed around was that a ricochet came back off the back wall and hit a recruit in the head (not killing but merely grazing their head).  Then the CC (who didn't believe it was a ricochet) fired off a round to prove the recruit must have done something wrong and did the same thing (or it went over his shoulder or something).  I wonder if we'll ever hear the truth on why the range is closed and why there's no more live fire in boot.

I will say Lurker that the ricochet is completely accurate on the first part. I will not go into details on why this happened but it did happen. The CC part i would say is completely inaccurate unless that CC tells me that.

The reason behind this is because your CC usually leave while your at the range becuase they dont want you being stressed more then you already are for the people that have never handled a gun before.

Can anyone say "scuttlebutt"? There isn't live fire anymore... Just leave the conjecture and rumor at the door. Southern was still stationed in Cape May when all that happened, I believe. So I am certain what he knows is probably the most accurate. If it wasn't you or you weren't there... Scuttlebutt. Loose lips, sink ships. So just tighten up the rumor mill.

And I thought it was just a bologna story on why they chose to save money instead of fixing the range.  Wonder why they weren't using frangibles then?  Oh well, if you can't say, then no harm. I might have gotten the CC part mixed up with an instructor at the range (but basically that someone went to test it and it happened again).

Posted By Old Guard2 on 06 Dec 2011 07:49 AM
Can anyone say "scuttlebutt"? Just leave the conjecture and rumor at the door. If it wasn't you or you weren't there... Scuttlebutt. Loose lips, sink ships. So just tighten up the rumor mill.

Maybe I'm reading into it a little much but this sounds like a little overreaction, OG2.  I understand how rumors can get out of control but "sink ships???" Really?  A rumor over why we shoot simulator instead of live rounds is going to.....well, whatever.  Didn't think it was all that serious.

I guess we should let all the historians know that they can't study history or retell stories because if they weren't there or it wasn't them, then they need to just not tell scuttlebutt.

It isn't overreaction and "Loose lips sink ships" is a saying that has been around since WWII. It isn't something my creative wit came up with on my own, I'm not that good.

My point is to say a CC took a firearm from a recruit and fired it and got hit with a ricochet... that would be scuttlebutt. Something that need not be mentioned because it sounds a bit far fetched. There was an accident and I also "heard" that the range was in deteriorating shape and the funding isn't in place to repair it. However, I don't know that to be the case or not... it is something that I just heard.

History is not scuttlebutt when there is documented evidence. Cave paintings tell a story that archeologists can read and be able to determine the facts as they are presented. So a historian studying the past and retelling what has been documented is different then whispers around a water cooler. No one is speculating if Abraham Lincoln went to the theater that night... They would speculate if he was enjoying the show or not. There is a difference between history and conjecture.

That was my only point... Don't talk about something you aren't sure to be factual. Especially CC's. They tend to take it personally.

When did this change? Went thru in Oct 2008 and we went to a live fire range, wasn't one on base, but we did do live fire.

Sometime within the last 12-ish months. My son went to live fire range. That was February 2009.

That is bad news, I have done both sim firing and live firing. Sim firing can givesyou a false impresion and confidence when you go to fire live.

Posted By NargilFenris on 14 Dec 2011 11:27 AM
That is bad news, I have done both sim firing and live firing. Sim firing can givesyou a false impresion and confidence when you go to fire live.

I agree with you to a point.  I've been an instructor for a while, and there are weaknesses in both live and simulation training.  The first problem with live fire is that people (especially old timer in Law Enforcement) get complacent when punching paper.  They are completely obsessed with their sights, and oblivious to the world around them.  Obviously, you need live fire to build strong shooting mechanics.

Let me add to what I said. I have done sim firing on the .40 but only for the basic qual course not the use of force course. That I could see being a great asset for training. Another thing I should for the sim course is that it does teach weapons familarization.

The way it was explained to me was there are many other jobs in the Coast Guard that don't require any real knowledge of a weapon to perform their duties. Therefore, they do a basic familiarization to cover everyone with the simulator. The ones that need it immediately for the unit/job they're going to travel offbase to receive more indepth instruction and qualification doing live fire. We saw a few bus loads of recruits taken off base for live fire because they absolutely needed it for where they were being stationed right out of boot.

All of this was back in July 2010 so now you have a more narrow timeline on when they switched from live fire for everyone to a simulator....somewhere between Feb 2009 and July 2010.

That is good if they do it that way.

OMG! The Sig 229 .40... Great weapon, I have one... Love it.

Not a fan, but every time I have shot it the weather was either cold, wet, windy or most of the time a combination there of.

The Sig .40 was rated one of the deadliest hand guns in the world by the FBI. It can do some damage.

Im not a fan of the Sig 229 dak but i will shoot anything they hand me.

I don't like the DAK... I like having that hammer that I can cock and decock myself. Also the DAK has a heavier trigger pull.

that is my problem with the dak is that it is about an 11lbs pull if i remember correctly

Yeah, and that's every time. Other wise with mine its a 11lbs pull to push the first one out then 5 pounds each time after...

the trigger pull on the 40 is so long. By the time you get one pull I can go eat lunch and come back and you're probably still pulling.

Yep... The one thing I like about the regular Sig with a hammer is... If I got one in the pipe and I am going to pull the trigger without cocking the hammer, I really have to think about what I am about to do... But once that round is gone, I'm ready to rock and roll.

Is there any chance of the range coming back in the next few months? I don't know anything about these stories people mentioned on here, but if they got rid of the range simply because of one mistake, that seems a little over the top. (If somebody makes a mistake firing on a range, how are they going to know how to use a handgun when they actually need to use one for real on the job? If recruits make mistakes on the range, I think that is more reason than ever for more shooting in training. But that is just my view with no military experience so my opinion is not the most valid). But I would really prefer to have a range when I go because I have very limited handgun training, and from my experience simulators are nothing like firing the actual weapon (granted I have never been in a military quality simulator, but still I can't imagine it is anything like firing an actual weapon).
My main fear would be if I was ordered to use a handgun after bootcamp and I had no clue how to. Which leads me to my question, will you ever have to carry or use a weapon as a nonrate? And do you get more extensive firearms training in A-school?

You can not EVERY use a handgun without the qualifications. As a non-rate at a station or on a cutter there is a very good chance you will be carrying a hand-gun, rifles, or shotgun for a boarding. Depending on the unit and/or underway schedule you may visit the range twice a year or every month. The only "A" school I know of that does extensive firearms training is ME.

GMs do EXTENSIVE training on small arms and weapons systems. Gunner's Mates the first three letters are gun.. c'mon.

Gandler, relax. In boot camp recruit safety is the #1 priority. I don't know what happened at the range I wasn't there. But, if a safety issue was involved it was clearly addressed. Risking a serious injury or death is not worth a training opportunity. It's the same throughout the CG, safety of the crew will always be a factor in every mission.

Will you have to carry a gun? It's possible. If you go to an operational unit you'll have to qualify before you can carry. That means classroom and range training with live fire which will give you plenty of opportunity to become familiar and comfortable with live fire.