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New Working Uniform
Last Post 13 Oct 2019 01:16 PM by CCCSD. 27 Replies.
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cetaryUser is Offline
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cetary

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09 Aug 2019 02:59 PM
    Did you guys hear about the rollout of the NWU Type III replacing the ODU? I'm really bummed. The ODU was our only really service specific uniform that really positively identified our branch when compared to something like Trops or Bravos, those are Air Force uniforms from what I get. I had the most positively memorable time walking on a Navy base with the all the Navy sailors wearing their aquaflage and guacamole uniforms. It was dusk. I was in a fresh set of newer ODU's with polished boots, and I felt so proud that our working uniform was better. Our uniform looks sleek and built with a purpose compared to the superfluous NWU family. It has a sharp slimming silhouette without the needless bulk of shoulder or ankle pockets. I felt special, uplifted in a way, and I didn't really get that high a feeling with Trops or Bravos. Looking at recent comments in the Navy, it also looks like they were probably envious to. Navy sailors were/are asking loudly for the ODU specifically.
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    09 Aug 2019 07:22 PM
    The new uniform is just an all blue NWU III. So we are still keeping our uniform color pattern service specific. I know a lot of people were hoping to get the navy camouflage NWU III but nope it's just all blue.
    cetaryUser is Offline
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    09 Aug 2019 08:21 PM
    Aquaflage, Really? *facepalm* Navy sailors don't want their NWU. I had sailors ask me about the ODU when I was on their base. They want our uniform specifically. The Type III is substantially flimsier then the ODU. The Type III's lifespan according to the Navy is only 2 years while our ODU is rated for 3,and that's factoring the NWU being banned from shipboard use.

    https://www.militarytimes.com/2013/03/21/report-fire-can-melt-nwus-to-your-skin/

    Admittedly that talks more on the Type I, but media releases on the Type III seem almost deliberately vague. However, you can see they still are issuing separate flame retardant uniforms in spite of also issuing Type III's. If Type III's were flame resistant, then why are they still issuing and talking about separate flame resistant uniforms?

    "The size of the initial roll-out is still being worked out. One proposal would require every sailor to have two sets of the green cammies, but that's based on decisions about fleet uniforms. Fleet Forces Command is in the process of developing a flame-resistant underway uniform intended to replace the uncomfortable Flame Resistant Variant coveralls. Options include a flight suit-style uniform or better designed coveralls, either of which could phase out the poly-cotton utility coveralls still issued. "

    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2016/10/23/the-navy-s-woodland-cammies-the-roll-out-plan-how-to-wear-them-right/

    This likely means an over 30 percent increase in uniform costs to our people, but this NWU will cost an estimated 4 dollars more on top of everything else. Having such a uniform on board a ship, fading will be bad. My beefier ODU's were barely holding onto life the boat. If they'd have been made out of lighter materiel, I would've had seems fail and uniforms unserviceable after only 10 months as a non-rate.  Also, the tradeoff for that lighter uniform is probably in vein. They added extra pockets to the pants and blouse that will only serve to act as heat traps. See the Army's new hot weather uniform, they remove pockets to stay cool.

    https://www.armytimes.com/news/your-army/2017/12/08/soldiers-to-test-new-jungle-boots-hot-weather-uniforms-this-spring/

    If they were to make an pattern ODU with the same materiel, the NWU would be at disadvantage.
    CCCSDUser is Offline
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    09 Aug 2019 09:34 PM
    Navy NWUIII is woodland/desert digi cam,,not aquaflage .
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    09 Aug 2019 09:52 PM
    What a cluster.....I'm glad I've been in a non uniformed assignment since 2005 and that I'm retiring in November. There are so many other more pressing issues the CG needs to be focusing on
    "When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign, that the dunces are all in confederacy against him."-Jonathan Swift
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    09 Aug 2019 09:59 PM
    Chief, you know dang well that unless someone isn’t messing with uniforms, it ain’t .Gov service.
    cetaryUser is Offline
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    10 Aug 2019 06:49 AM
    I actually tried on that uniform I wore years ago. It's from boot camp. It fits really well. I really like the pants. The waist isn't as large as the same size uni's I got from the Exchange after. It sits without any bulk on my waist. I could wear this without any belt. The legs are just,slightly tapered. They came like that. I don't even like skinny pants, but these are fine. They're not skintight, they still have just the right space and form that they flow with the natural silhouette while still being utilitarian. I can bend over, etc. Reminds me of the old school OG fatigues from photos. Man, the seat and rise on these is on point to. Nothing in excess yet not annoyingly tight. Judging these as if they weren't even a uniform, I wouldn't mind having civilian pants cut with similar allowances to these.

    The NWU's have an elastic waist band...I haven't worn pants with elastic waist since I was a child. I'm a man, not a child. I buy pants that fit.

    The blouse is still in great shape even though I wore it at my first two units and a-school as a non-rate. An iron has never even seen this uni. I found that heavy pressing the ODU isn't wise. Even having the seamstress dry clean or press the uniform, the stitching around pocket flaps would end up puckering and fraying/fading same with the collar. I found that the collar would start to curl if I or the seamstress had pressed it and I tumble dried. Tumble drying I would say is another thing that hurts the uni. It was also never tumble dried.

    Anyways, if I'm still in by the time the change over happens, I'll wear Trops, Bravos, and coveralls as much as possible. Maybe make it like a game till end of enlistment.
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    13 Aug 2019 06:30 PM
    I wanted to also mention, the current Navy sea bag calls for three sets of the NWU Type III woodland camouflage. The article I linked above shows the Navy is in the process of considering rolling back the woodland Type III in spite of it not even being fully deployed yet. They appear to already be in talks of cutting the Type III for each sailor from 3 down to 2. Woodland camouflage is unbefitting of a service that prides itself on being predominantly sea going or a service that refers to its very heart as being ships or boats.

    https://www.public.navy.mil/bupers-npc/support/uniforms/uniformregulations/Chapter1/Pages/SeabagActive.aspx 

    I also wanted to share this tidbit to. USAF Blues

    https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/GNyU4tsR-YlGdUu3XqV2dzbSccM=/1200x0/filters:quality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/ORCA3WNYZFABZAO7UEZ6Y4ZV4I.JPG

    "USCG" Tropical Blue Long Uniform

    https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/pressofatlanticcity.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/23/223e9138-0299-592f-aa59-ef5c3d70747d/4e235b9765504.image.jpg

    I just want that to sink in. One of our main service dress uniform is a copy of the Air Force's using the same trouser, undershirt, shirt, nameplates, award positioning, belt, and probably even shoes. This in part, is why I have such strong feelings of the ODU, it is Coast Guard. People do a double take for ODU's, but they mistake our own in Trops for Air Force. 


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    14 Aug 2019 04:58 PM
    So here's some other tidbits of the Type III, this time regarding the choice of the use of Velcro on many of the pockets and rank tab. The Navy fully anticipates Velcro maintenance with this uniform, that it will wear out and is not for day to day use. They also mention the use of additional built in Velcro covers to protect the uniform when being washed...this further adds complexity and more heat trapping materiel.

    I personally love this one ,"The uniform was not designed to be more stylish." hmm, Navy Times anyone on the new NWU Type III?

    New Uniforms Revealed! Fashionable and FREE!

    https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-navy/2019/02/25/new-uniforms-revealed-fashionable-and-free/

    https://www.navsup.navy.mil/public/navsup/nexcom/nwu_qa/

    But back to the uniform. The shoulder pockets were also put there expressly for those wearing body armor. But the vast majority of Coast Guardsmen that wear this uniform will probably never don body armor on a regular basis. Making it useless the vast bulk of the time and only serving to help make the uniform more stifling hot in warm weather. Speaking in terms of boarding teams as well, many of those elect to wear more comfortable coveralls instead, or they forgo the blouse electing for the shirt and trousers based on my experiences. LEDET officers now appear to be wearing mostly Crye combat shirts now as well to. I've also seen ME's previously electing to wear the blue flight suits whole patrols to. They aren't even wearing ODU's let alone blouses. Those most likely to need tactical special forces specific uniforms will not see benefit. The center rank tab, was again, chosen for those wearing body armor for extended periods of time with their collars 'popped'. Reaching back up to the comment above with the majority of CG members not needing to don body armor on a regular basis in this thing with their collars 'popped', this is another mostly fruitless endeavor. 

    Also want to add, adding extra materiel to the uniform in the form of tactical pockets will increase the time the uniform takes to dry after being soaked through. 

    mkellyUser is Offline
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    17 Aug 2019 06:47 AM
    I don't see the big deal. If they cost more, our pay will increase slightly. We already get a clothing stipend. They will give us a larger stipend to purchase all new uniforms, nobody will use it for that, and then people will complain about how expensive they are. Thats typically how it goes right?

    The process that goes into changing uniforms is such an arduous process that once a decision is made, its going to stick for a while. The only thing complaining about it does is give people another reason to be grumpy and make excuses for poor attitude. We make do with what we have and we do it well. Don't let a uniform change get in the way of your happiness, productivity, or the people you work with.
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    cetary

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    17 Aug 2019 07:47 AM
    I understand they may increase our uniform allowance, but it is an ecologically unsound practice to be throwing out increasing amounts clothing into dumps and landfills. As we have seen with fast fashion and disposable clothing doing its number on the environment; in ways the shortened lifespan of the Type III is at odds with the CG mission of environmental protection. On another note, found some pictures of what the uniform will look like.

    https://www.dvidshub.net/image/5125485/us-fleet-forces-conducts-wear-test-two-piece-organizational-clothing-prototype

    The chest pockets appear to have very similar issues to the ODU, namely puckering around the edges. However, there is the new issue with a set of two buttons being underneath each chest pocket in addition to Velcro. These 'shrouded' buttons end up fading through their covers, and you end up seeing the buttons through the closed pockets. I just see that as engineering superfluous having both Velcro and buttons for chest pockets. The lower set of cargo pockets on the pants also seem to add more points of where the uniform will fade and discolor. The shoulder pockets fading looks like it can be hidden to an extent with morale patches, but this uniform should be able to stand on its own. There also appears to be horizontal stitching near the elbows and the knees on the reinforcement panels of the uniform. I can see those being additional fade points. The use of Velcro for ranks will be interesting. I just wait for a time when I see a crazy faded blouse and dark blue set of new "crows" on the same uniform. I can also see that differential fading between darker blouses and older trousers being possibly worsened. The CG is starting from an already very competent uniform in the ODU. These are observations I'm making on how gracefully this uniform will age, and I'm not seeing a uniform that looks like an improvement in that regards.
    CCCSDUser is Offline
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    17 Aug 2019 09:11 AM
    So why didn’t you send your comments to the Uniform Board..? Seems like your complaints are about landfill and perceived comfort, which, unless you’ve worn and worked in them, don’t count. Reading about something and doing something are vastly different.

    All you are doing on here is projecting your bias on everyone else.
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    17 Aug 2019 09:29 AM
    I did, actually. It's made it up pretty high, from what I hear. My arguments are partly based off of Army experience and implementation ,as with the jungle uniform, not personal bias. While I may not have worked in Type III's ,specifically, that still doesn't invalidate both Navy and Army experiences with light weight uniforms and Army experiences on hot weather uniforms. You're selling yourself short when you assume something is fully the way it has to be without changes.

    I've been very critical of the NWU, but I'll shift my focus to helping it succeed. Things like having a heavier weight and a lighter weight optional version can help greatly mitigate the short lifespan helping to bring the NWU on par in terms of durability with the ODU. Help reduce fading while offering members the option of the tradeoff of reduced durability and  lifespan but a slight increase in perceived comfort.
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    17 Aug 2019 09:55 AM
    And removing the buttons beneath each breast pocket can simplify production and help to eliminate the appearence of ghost buttons entirely. This may also have to be done with the lower ankle pockets if they're the same setup. Emphasizing gentler methods of washing and encouraging hang drying can help to substantially reduce the fading around the pocket seams as well as the heavier fabric adding in its as well. The CG tested and failed the lightweight ODU just several years ago on the grounds of poor durability. It would be a disservice to only have a lightweight working uniform.
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    17 Aug 2019 10:10 AM
    What does the environmental impact report say about switching to the new uniform? I'm sure they have done one. What about the environmental impact of having 2 different versions? Cost impact of having 2 different versions?
    Do you know the reasoning behind the buttons and hook/pile? What have the design studies shown? Why have they made all of the changes they have made? What type of testing went into those decisions? What mishap reports have contributed to the making of the new uniform? Whats the cost analysis of different fabric types verses the functionality? How do jobs in the Navy and Army differ from what the Coast Guard is doing? What is the projected life span verses the actual life span of the old uniform? Now compare those studies to the studies of suggested care of uniforms versus actual care of uniforms...ie washing/drying/ironing and storage.
    What something appears to be, what people say, and what studies have shown can all be completely different. If you can take the things that you are worried about, compare those with actual studies completed and line them up with the decision making process into the proposed uniform changes, I'd like to see what that looks like.
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    17 Aug 2019 10:33 AM
    The CG has been pretty quite about this whole thing. I haven't been able to pull information like that may or may not have been made like environmental impact reports myself as I'm not on the board myself. But it sounds highly unlikely they took environmental impacts into account as they mentioned nothing remotely to that accord. Long term validity of the studies should be a component part of how useful these reports are. Like say, early Army reports said they needed to switch to a stand up Mandarin collar with the ACU, but that collar didn't prove useful and Army partially retro-graded to a fold down design. Those metrics and reports that led to that design that underwent  retrograde would be at question. I like the part about observing jobs in the CG versus Army and even Navy. Things like body armor oriented features may be useful when everyone is a trained rifleman first, so to speak, but it may not be as useful in real world use when most of your members aren't trained to wear body armor. It doesn't even sound like they tested this thing in the field, so that isn't comforting. I at least partly agree, it really should be the results actually achieved as I'm sure the Navy was very confident with its 100s of millions sunk in research and development costs in the Type I, but that all turned out into failure. I'm sure they were very confident about their studies, but real world application showed them failing to achieve the goal of being the underway all around dirty work uniform.

    We know the reasoning for the combined button and hook and pile was to cater for the needs of the SEALs missions, you can read more about it in the NAVSUP page I linked at the top.  What I find disconcerting to me is they took a uniform built specifically for the mission of the Navy SEAL to be fighting on land in forests, jungles, and deserts colored it blue and called it our uniform when our mission profiles are very disimilar.
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    17 Aug 2019 10:55 AM
    And reaching back up to the light weight vs heavy weight uniform durability. There are those who have observed a significant decrease in the durability of uni's when switching from the heavier Type I to III. You can read about their observations as well as those that have seen poor durability in the ACU. It's good to know you agree with seeing real world observations, and there are plenty of observations made on the lower durability of the ACU and Type III available widely online. Any cuts made to the quality and durability of the uniform will adversely affect rates such as deck seaman versus say an officer. Anyone assigned to a boat could see that. Yet that seaman is still paying off his boot camp things and doesn't have as much in savings as an officer. It's actively going after the poor.

    I had originally brought up points and data and experiences that showed little potential need for an NWU type uniform, but by sliding into the evaluation of development procedures I feel we're falling away from the original discussion at this point. 
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    17 Aug 2019 07:22 PM
    Whining and complaining about it will not do any good. The CG makes changes to the uniform from time to time, so you need to get over it. If the Commandant says you will now wear this uniform, then you will wear it...period.
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    17 Aug 2019 08:06 PM
    No kidding. I’ve worn them all.
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    17 Aug 2019 08:16 PM
    Feel free to address the points. If not, then we don't have much to discuss. These are mostly personal observations and experiences and evidence ,not whining.
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    17 Aug 2019 08:34 PM
    That’s correct. They are YOUR personal views, not fact. If you put as much effort into your work, you just might make Rate...
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    18 Aug 2019 07:19 PM
    That comment is demeaning. At a time when the CG is making efforts to combat internal bullying, and you post this. Comments like this that attack a person are what the CG is trying to prevent with mandated training. I would assume you're a P/O or above by this comment which is disgraceful to the rank and helps to reinforce the negative appearence of higher non-commissioned officers to lower enlisted and future enlistees.

    Mods please lock this thread, we aren't making any positive headway.
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    19 Aug 2019 10:22 AM
    I've read through it... While it has devolved a touch, there are still debatable questions on the table. You are new here and this forum is open to great debate at times. it is also open to nonsense. Rarely do we lock a thread because someone doesn't like the direction it is taking when it varies from their original viewpoint. I agree, let's not bully one another, there's enough of that in the world. But I don't see a reason to lock the thread.

    Remember opinions are like buttholes... We all have them and most stink.
    Sector NY, Staten Island
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    19 Aug 2019 05:45 PM
    Posted earlier and I believe in need of clarification..

    " I also wanted to share this tidbit to. USAF Blues

    https://www.armytimes.com/resizer/GNyU4tsR-YlGdUu3XqV2dzbSccM=/1200x0/filters:quality(100)/arc-anglerfish-arc2-prod-mco.s3.amazonaws.com/public/ORCA3WNYZFABZAO7UEZ6Y4ZV4I.JPG

    "USCG" Tropical Blue Long Uniform

    https://bloximages.chicago2.vip.townnews.com/pressofatlanticcity.com/content/tncms/assets/v3/editorial/2/23/223e9138-0299-592f-aa59-ef5c3d70747d/4e235b9765504.image.jpg

    I just want that to sink in. One of our main service dress uniform is a copy of the Air Force's using the same trouser, undershirt, shirt, nameplates, award positioning, belt, and probably even shoes. This in part, is why I have such strong feelings of the ODU, it is Coast Guard. People do a double take for ODU's, but they mistake our own in Trops for Air Force. "

    A common misconception concerning the USCG and USAF uniforms being copies of each other. To the casual observer they may be similar but to military trained personnel they are different and service specific. There are distinct differences between USAF and USCG officer and enlisted tropical type uniforms..

    The light blue shirt, long or short sleeve are indeed identical in style and color. Have been since that CG style uniform became mandatory in 1976.
    Trousers - the shade of CG blue is distinctly different shade from USAF blue. The basic cut of the trousers is different. CG trousers specify the front pockets cut at an angle vs USAF pockets vertical.
    Belts - metal fittings - USCG gold, USAF Silver
    Insignia Officers - USCG distinctive gold shoulder marks with stripes indicating pay grade. USAF soft shoulder marks with the different rank insignia indicating pay grade.
    Insignia Enlisted - USCG collar insignia of chevron/shield or anchor/shield indicating pay grades E-4 to E-9. E-1 to E-3 pay grade not indicated or necessary. USAF both sleeve chevrons indicate all enlisted par grades.
    Combination cap and garrison cap for USCG , Garrison cap for USAF
    Award and name plates placement fairly standard for all services, service shoes interchangeable.

    There are enough differences that to trained personnel the differences in dress type uniforms are apparent. That tropical uniform, along with the SDB uniform is a distinctly USCG item.

    The ODU type uniforms, that is something specific to the current post 9-11 CG and is something you folks can claim as your own unique identifying uniform. You should have a healthy debate on what will identify you to the country that maintains you.

    As has been debated for a long time, the USCG is not really into wearing 'dress type uniforms' any more.  The ODU is your identifying image..
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    19 Aug 2019 07:54 PM
    Posted By cetary on 17 Aug 2019 09:16 PM
    Feel free to address the points. If not, then we don't have much to discuss. These are mostly personal observations and experiences and evidence ,not whining.

    How long have you been in the Coast Guard?
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    Bullet Proof

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    13 Oct 2019 12:46 PM
    I joined this site for only one reason.
    Cetary, you have got to be shitting me, you mean to tell me that you got butt hurt from a single sentence that to me seemed to have very little "hurtful" language in it. I am so glad that we never had little whiny millennial bitches like you when I served.
    You never would have survived a patrol. Go find a safe place and hide before a real Coastie puts a boot in your ass.
    BMC - out
    CCCSDUser is Offline
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    CCCSD

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    13 Oct 2019 01:16 PM
    Can’t like that enough!
    Nailed it Boats!
    CCCSDUser is Offline
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    CCCSD

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    13 Oct 2019 01:16 PM
    Can’t like that enough!
    Nailed it Boats!
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